First EV trip

[Patrick w]

In Europe they have diesel hybrids that do about 100us mpgs

 

[canadian.bacon]

YouTuber "Technology Connections" did a bit on this... saying that in his mind, the plug-in hybrid... built with an electric range of maybe 100 miles which easily satisfies most people's commute and normal daily driving, but with an engine to get you further when necessary, was a much better overall strategy than the current one of putting expensive batteries in a vehicle trying to bump up the electric-only range to 3 or 400 miles, when (for most people) that's not needed often.

For $ savings, not worth it as they cost more upfront to begin with.

 

[canadian.bacon]

@Patrick w
That’s cool. Can they tow 3500lb with 350lb tongue weight ?

 

[Patrick w]

@Patrick w
That’s cool. Can they tow 3500lb with 350lb tongue weight ?

In general (very general) in Europe they have a significantly higher tow rating for the same car. A golf sportwagon tdi in Europe is rated to tow 1500kg (braked)
Mercedes GLE 350 de is a diesel electric hybrid.
There getting less and less popular as the whole vw dieselgate thing.

 

[Patrick w]

For $ savings, not worth it as they cost more upfront to begin with.

If your counting incentives. Otherwise no.

 

[davido]

You specified the total cost to you, not the total cost of the electricity consumed.

The CG isn't currently asking for an EV surcharge, but if we get to a point where a significant portion of CG visitors are subsidizing their fuel cost by increasing the CG's electrical bill, that's going to change.

You could say "But I'm not using air conditioning. I'm not running to AC units off a 50A circuit." And you would be right. But the CG's total electrical bill goes up considerably if half its customers are charging at 28A or 48A for most of their stay, in addition to the 80% who are running one or two 15A air conditioners for a third of the day.

We're all going to electrical vehicles someday, and that's great, it's fine... we know it's coming. There will be a tipping point where places have no patience for footing the bill on peoples' charging costs.

 

[canadian.bacon]

@davido
Sure. Add another #30 CAD for a quick supercharger trip to get me back to 80%-85%. Thats around $23 USD, plus my home $5, we are under $30 USD for back and forth trip with a PUP for around 250 miles, give or take.
With gas at 3.55/gal, its about $30 for 250 miles if you average 30 mpg. Do you ?
Also, i use it as a dd. This saves me on average $500-$600/month CAD

 

[Rusty2192]

Biggest issue is that it's almost impossible to charge unless you unhitch. Not only can you not go more than 2 hours or so, but it's going to take you 20 minutes to recharge and another 10-15 to park, unhitch, then rehitch. It also negates any possibility of boondocking or federal campgrounds that lack power.

What's interesting is if the OP is quoting around 180 mile range while towing (going down to 0% from 100), that represents a 83% drop in the max designed range of 330 miles, or 54% of the max range.

On the other hand, towing my lifted 1640LTD with my 4cyl Subaru Outback averages around 22MPG on the flats, vs the 27-29ish I would normally get, which is only a 31% drop or 76% of the range.

Seems like EV's do a lot worse when towing in comparison to gasoline vehicles as far as a percentage of potential energy used.

Teslas are known for their advertised range being a little overly optimistic at highway speeds. So rather than looking at that, use the consumption like your Subaru for comparison. The OP’s example of 90 mi consuming 51% of the 81 kWh battery pack would be 2.2 mi/kWh, or 74.6 MPGe. That’s a 38% drop from its unladen 122 MPGe, so not too far off your Subaru.

The biggest difference is just due to aerodynamics. The Subaru (all ICE cars really) is basically a brick pushing into the wind so when you add another brick behind it, mostly in the same profile, there isn’t much overall change in the aero drag. But EVs are designed to be as aerodynamic as possible, especially on the rear of the car, and definitely a Tesla, so when you put the brick behind that it really adds a lot of drag.

But it really has nothing to do with the energy source, it’s just physics of the wind resistance. Comparing apples to apples, a gas F-150 will go from 20 mpg empty to 10 towing a TT, roughly half. A Lightning that has the same shape will go from about 2 mi/KWh to 1 towing the same TT, again about half. EVs just have much less energy onboard to start with compared to a gas tank

 

[samweiss]

Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD - towing capacity 3500lb, tongue weight 350lb
Camper: Rockwood 1940LTD - weight 1608 lb, hitch weight 195lb

First drive was about 90 miles away, fairly hilly here and there. Speeds about ~65 mph, give or take. Fair weather, sunny, a bit windy.
In the car: 2 adults, 2 dogs, some gear, one large bag of wood, coolers with food and beer, one large mosquito net.
In the trailer: water jug, 7 large bags of wood, bbq, full propane tank, camping chairs, some other stuff.

Return trip was the same distance, no load in the trailer. Speeds about ~55mph, give or take. Fair weather, sun and clouds, a bit windy.
Started with 90% battery, got there with about 40%. Used 50.2% battery on the way there, for about 90ish miles.
On the way back, started with 85%, got home with 40%.

We charged the car from 39% to 85% over the weekend since we had an electric site at the RV 30 amp plug. Car charged at 24 amps for about 11 hours to 85%.

Total cost of the trip: around $2.59CAD (around $1.96USD)- charged at home at 7.4c/kw on thew way up and free on the return.

We towed previously with a Ram 1500 V8 full crewcab 4x4 and a Toyota 4Runner. On daily driving all around, road trips, city, highway, towing, the Model Y is about 10 times cheaper than the 4Runner.

Feel free to ask me any questions.

Hi. How far can you tow with your setup?

 

[canadian.bacon]

Hi. How far can you tow with your setup?

i would comfortably do 180-190 miles, and keeping it lighter and within the speed limit, I could push 200 miles. The numbers are based on 90% battery, with 100% I can probably do easy 225 miles. But to keep it real world numbers, 10%-15% to 80ish% is about 20-25 min. Times get longer to push into 90% at proably 35ish min and longer to 100%. Fastest and best for the battery life is 10%-15% to 80%. As I said, easy 180 miles on a single charge.

 

[aircooled]

The reason the EV takes a bigger hit on range when towing a trailer is because the EV uses much less energy than an ICE vehicle when not towing. So the extra energy needed to pull the trailer is a much larger portion of the overall energy to move the car and trailer. A 50% reduction is range tells you its taking just as much energy to move the trailer as it is to move the car. So the larger hit on range for the EV when towing just shows you how efficient the EV is alone.

 

[canadian.bacon]

@aircooled
What kills the EV range is not the weight, it’s the aerodynamics. The electric motor can pull very well, the max torque is available at 0 rpm.
All engines, steam, gas, diesel, electric, they all take a hit when towing.
The reason the hit is not as visibly high with gas/diesel is because the engine is already inefficient by a large margin. A lot of the energy is wasted as heat out the exhaust pipe.
In the model Y long range, the energy stored in the battery is a bit under the equivalent of 2 gallons of gas.
Pretty much you can pull the trailer for 180 miles with less than 2 gallons of gas. Compared to a gas car similar size that can tow 3500lb, I’d say it is pretty efficient

 

[jmkay1]

Kind of off topic, but kinda not….I’d be curious in the future how apartments, condos handle the whole electric car thing. That’s my biggest problem with electric cars is there is no way for me to plug it in at home or work (parking garage in the city). Here an electric car is perfect to get around cities however a majority of people in cities live in condos, apartments and their Work may not be any better.

 

[canadian.bacon]

@jmkay1
Here they started changing the building codes a few years back. Now, all the new developments include conduits for EVs right off the bat. I know of some buildings that already have a few charging stations and others that install it for each parking spot. I don’t think it is an overnight process, it will probably take years and years. A lot of workplaces now include charging stations, most of them free, work perks. A good friend of mine got a Model 3 that he charges at work exclusively 100%. My work place has a few stations, slow ones, but hey, it’s there.

 

[jmkay1]

Here they started changing the building codes a few years back. Now, all the new developments include conduits for EVs

That's good to know. You got me thinking , I'm curious if the new condos coming in near my office have included EVs in their plans. The units there are said to be going for as high as $500k+. Way to rich for my pay grade but perhaps that cost includes extras like EV charging.

 

[Patrick w]

The only way EV for the masses will work is if each larger building/area has a battery reserve system (like 50000kw). This becomes the supplemental supply to smooth out the grid demand.

 

[BBQdave]

A station would need to have 15000kw (is that 15mw?) Hourly producton to keep up. on a busy interstate, that could mean over 300mw daily which is right on the cusp of Some of the largest solar farms in America.

All this for 1 gas station replacement!!!

That is the challenge. What is the benefit? What is the cost?

If one wants to drive an EV, that's great An interesting evolving technology.

I see quite a few Teslas pulling pups and camping at the lake near me. It's a good application, because the lake is near multiple large cities. So the EV provides a good use, in the city and out of the city to camp.

The vast majority of vehicles are combustion engines. That's affordable, and the infrastructure to support them is in place.

I've yet to see a plan that shows the benefit of switching the masses to EV. You will need infrastructure built. You will need power produced and delivered. You will need parts created.

At this point, you are just trading out one consumption for another, no gain for the environment, no gain in energy use, and a bigger impact in materials harvested from the environment to ramp up one technology over another.

I'm not against the technology of EV's and developing the infrastructure to support EV's. But it's going to be developed as the application is realistic and appropriate.

 

[Patrick w]

I still think hybrid's and plug in hybrids are the way to go. It gives the flexibility of both fuel types.

 

[aircooled]

I would be interested in a plug in hybrid truck in an instant. For example 50 miles of all electric and a ICE power plant for trailer towing would be a great option.
Why is there such a push to move to electric vehicles? It's simple really. We can not keep burning fossil fuels and expect the elevated carbon dioxide levels that result to not impact our environment. The switch to a sustainable form of transportation is really not a choice but a requirement.

 

[Anthony Hitchings]

If you only tow infrequently, just rent a TV